quick question


Unarmed.

When did a person having a weapon become a requirement for LE to use deadly force? I keep on hearing about how many “unarmed” people are killed by police, as if “unarmed” equates to unjustified.

That’s never been the case.

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11 thoughts on “quick question”

  1. Hear, hear!

    Plus the sensationalized witness accounts getting all the play in the media definitely do not tell the whole story.

    1. The other things that frost me are the “cops kill (x) citizens every year” or “cops kill more Americans than the Taliban” gems. Well yeah…most of the robbers, killers, bad guys out there are “citizens”. The implication is that these are somehow predominantly bad shoots. Which I believe the statistics refute.

  2. Exactly. Why would anybody look at those statistics or dig any deeper than the pandering headlines and questionable witness reports? Seems all they want to hear and believe these days is “unarmed black 18yr old kid killed by white officer for no good reason.” Why wait for the details to emerge from an official investigation when they can try officer Wilson in the court of public opinion? And yet they call it “character assassination” when Brown’s starring role in a strongarm robbery that day is exposed along with the officer’s identity. You really have to dig to find out Brown was an imposing 6ft 4in and nearly 300lbs. The pictures of Brown that the media seem to use almost exclusively are of a clearly younger version with what seems to be a videogame arcade as the background.

    1. Thing is…I’m all for the citizenry demanding answers from it’s public servants. I’m 100% behind questioning things that demand questioning.

      But what we have in large is uneducated second-guessing of police actions based either on anecdotal personal experience (which is always skewed…nobody arrested thinks they deserved it) or on internet based sources of questionable accuracy.

      Hell a reporter thought foam earplugs were “rubber bullets”. With that level of information behind their stories how can anyone base opinions based on popular media???

  3. The problem is, many people are isolated from personal violence have no benchmark for comparison. Even allowing for the artificial environment of martial art sparing, few in the media and general public have seen how dangerous an unarmed person can be.

    Most people, knowing only the cloud fantasy land of TV think violence is easily survival occurrence with no repercussions, no lingering damage, no significant impact on the victim’s life.

    Many students in my firearms courses are surprised you can rubber knife your way across a 10 foot distance almost instantly. They envisioned that distance as an immensely safe distance. I show them a tape of the Tueller drill and they are amazed. We even go as far as provide them with an article on the Tueller drill from the the Akron Beacon Journal following a justified police shooting that was met with “But, he just had a knife!” public outrage. For once I was proud of my local media.

    When we take the rubber knife away and introduce disparity of force I’m often greeted with disbelief.

    If you carry a gun, you should have a well grounded, working concept of disparity of force. Just because seems to be invisible doesn’t mean it’s not real. You can follow up with my thoughts on this at:
    http://tactical-talk.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-difference.html

      1. I show my students the two people in the open area from that video. It’s an excellent illustration of part of Ayoob’s AOJ: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

        I’m going to reread your post on the Tueller drill.

        But I think what we’re missing is the point of unarmed is not the same as harmless. We are looped in on how people mishandled the aftermath of the incident, but we should remain focused on disparity of force. While there are lessons to learn about managing these incidents, a better understanding of disparity of force and the tactics to deal with it would serve the LEO and CCW communities better.

  4. I believe that you’ve asked the wrong question. Simply because someone is empty-handed it does not always translate into being non-lethal. That problem is going to be faced by LEOs and civilians alike in some situations. It’s a very tough call and I hope that I never have to face that sort of situation in reality.

    The real question that I have about the shooting in Ferguson centers on the follow-up procedures and investigation. Did the local and/or county police follow their standard protocols and procedures? My follow-up question is, if they did not, why not? Obviously there is a significant problem that existed in Ferguson prior to the shooting death of Michael Brown by the police officer. If the standard investigative procedures were not followed this entire incident is going to be another significant problem for that community to deal with in the coming weeks, months and possibly years to come.

    The handling of the incident in St. Louis City regarding the fellow with the knife, was handled very differently and both the mayor and chief of police were on target in getting information out and explaining the situation. The fact that the 2 aldermen were immediately calling for calm and supporting the idea of letting the investigation move forward in the normal manner helped to defuse the situation. Combine those factors with the idea that the deceased was known in the community as a trouble individual and the circumstances were different enough to stop and problems from arising in the first place.

    Look back at Ferguson and we see that the police chief handled the entire incident in a very poor manner, the mayor of the city never came forward to speak to the citizens of his town, the deceased was unarmed
    and the chief released the video of the theft from the store, which he acknowledged had nothing to do with the shooting from the officer’s perspective and why would anyone expect that the citizens would not be upset and angry?

    A lot of things need to be sorted out and explained.

    1. IMO…the robbery footage has nothing to do with the officers response. However, I do believe it can be looked at as an explination for Browns actions at police contact. If the officers story of immediate assault are accurate, that assault COULD reasonably be explained as Brown believing he was going to be arrested for the robbery.

      Its not an issue of explaining the cops actions…its a possible explination for Brown’s.

  5. I’m all for citizens demanding answers of their public servants. Likewise I also personally demand that private citizens working in the media need to investigate better and make sure they have their i’s dotted and t’s crossed before they report.

    The Ferguson shooting has been poorly reported on as of this date and or over reported as well. Get the facts, check them, cross check and corroborate with other sources. It seems like in today’s fast paced world that everyone wants to get some thing out extremely fast and be the first one without checking.

    This Ferguson shooting could have been handled better by the media, local police, Police Chief, Mayor, black political leaders and of course the citizens in that town that have rioted. Everyone involved needs to accept some personal responsibility in this matter.

    I do not know what the outcome will be of this shooting. Whether the officer involved will be exonerated or found guilty. I just do not know. Why? Because I do not feel all the facts are out at this time. So we will just have to wait and see!

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